Interview: Walter Martin

It's not rare these days for a musician who's made their living making music for adults to try their hand at making music for kids.  Nor is it rare for bands to break up and have the individual members release solo albums.

Combining those two?  That's way more unusual.  But it's exactly that path that Walter Martin has chosen.  In the wake of the "extreme hiatus" of The Walkmen, which he'd played in since helping to found the band in 2000, Martin, the father of 2 young kids, decided to release an album of family music, the delightful We're All Young Together, which will be released on May 13 (you can pre-order on iTunes, pre-order on vinyl, or pre-order the old-school CD).  We chatted by phone last week about his musical memories, his decision to record music for families, and why it's hard for a lot of 25-year-olds to write music for kids.

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Zooglobble: What are your first musical memories?

Walter Martin:  I have a very vague recollection of listening to my parents' Pete Seeger records.  But I'm not sure if that's something I invented after the fact -- I have those records now.

I remember going on long car trips over Spring Break, listening to the Beatles' greatest hits collections -- you know those, the red and blue ones?

Yeah, one was, like '62 through '65 and the other '66 through '70, or something like that?

Yes, those.  I wasn't a big enough fan yet and I thought it was one guy doing lots of different voices -- "why does Ringo sound so different on 'A Little Help from my Friends'?"

Were your parents musical in terms of playing music, or just big fans?

Both, I guess.  My mother's mother, who died before I was born, was a kids' music teacher.  She passed down piano playing skills to my mom.  My dad didn't play an instrument, but he was a big rock 'n' roll fan -- so was my mom.

You've been making music for -- I haven't done the math, but it must for more than half your life...

[Pauses] I think it's two-thirds, actually.  Stewart [Lupton] and I -- we started our previous band, Jonathan Fire*Eater -- we took guitar lessons together.  We sang "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" by The Clash at a girl's 12th birthday party.  Matt [Barrick] joined us in 7th grade -- it's really all I've ever done.

When The Walkmen went on hiatus, you obviously had to think about what to do next, and while recording a solo album is an obvious choice, making that album a family album is not.  What led you to do this?

Like a lot of people, when you're in your mid-30s, you need to think about what you'll be doing in your 40s -- what is Plan B?  After our last [Walkmen] album Heaven, I knew that I wanted to do a record of my own.  I wrote lots of different things, "Walkmen"-y things.  But after I wrote the first couple songs that ended up on this record, I knew, that's me.

What were your musical inspirations in writing and recording We're All Young Together?

While I was focusing on the writing, I was hanging around the house in the kitchen a lot.  We listen to '50s rock, tons of that.  It had a very "light" tone, and I thought, why don't I make music like this?  Stuff like the Coasters, or Lieber & Stoller.  Or Jonathan Richman -- his solo stuff is whimsical and sweet.  His cool Modern Lovers persona goes out the window, and he's singing a song about a flower.

Is it the innocence and lack of cynicism that draws you to that type of music?

Yeah, the innocence is hugely appealing.  It appeals to the carefree side, which I think is valuable.  I've been surrounded by brainy and serious music.  The innocence [in those '50s songs] makes you want to listen with your family.  Also, at the end of the night, it's what you put on at a party -- it's got a great dance beat, everybody wants to dance to it.

Were there differences in the recording process for this new album compared to your prior ones?

For the first Walkmen album, we had just started our own recording studio, so we were figuring out equipment and our own music.  So it was not a great technical recording.  For this album, I tied to rerecord some of the first kids' tracks and it totally lost its spark.  I wanted the recording to be tied to the personalities.

You have a lot of guest artists [Karen O from the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Matt Beringer from the National, and more] from the indie rock world on the album -- was it hard to convince them to join you?

No.  When I sent them e-mails, I told them that I was attempting to make the sweetest, funniest family record ever -- set the bar high, right?  But everybody was into it.  In fact, I think it was probably easier than if I wanted to make an "indie rock" record, be all like "I'm Mr. Cool Guy, come hang with me."  That would've been lame.  That might have made sense when I was 22, but now...

Yeah, I think there's something about setting aside the need to be "cool" that is hard to do at 25 and much easier at 35 that may make it harder to write family music for a lot of people at the age of 25.

That's why I asked who I did to be on the album.  They're into a different thing now.

I'm going to ask a questions that's probably on the list of Top 10 Most Annoying Questions asked of musicians, but do you have a favorite song from the album?

I really like "Hey Sister." 

On the album, some are funny, and some are sweet.  I tried to make the funny songs sweet, and the sweet songs funny, but I think on "Hey Sister" it's a perfect blend.

It's a great track -- the chemistry comes through.

Kat Edmonson, who sings with me, I love her voice.  I sort of sound like Elmer Fudd, but she's great.

Changing gears a bit, I'm curious about your perceptions of the world of kids music before you started and what you think now.

I really knew nothing about kids music before starting this.  I had albums from Burl Ives, Woody Guthrie, that Johnny Cash children's album.  But it was just mixed in with the rest of my music, and didn't know any albums.  So when I started on the album, I did some research, and immediately found Dan Zanes.  He lived in Brooklyn, played old songs on real instruments, started after his daughter was born -- there were just so many parallels with me.  But I haven't done that much research -- I've now got 2 kids under the age of 21 months, so...

Any favorites among those old kids music albums?

That Woody Guthrie album, Songs to Grow On [For Mother and Child] -- it's so off-key, but like I said before, that's fine.  It's so great, so funny, and it's so in line with his other stuff.

The Johnny Cash Children's Album is more thrown together, maybe 3 new songs along with other songs recorded elsewhere, but that song -- "I Got a Boy and His Name Is John" -- it's so great and funny and sweet.

Do you have a musical house?

Oh, there's a lot of music playing constantly on all the floors.  We listen endlessly.  I think it's rubbed off on my older daughter.  She likes "Goober Peas," from Burl Ives.  She's just learned to talk, so she calls "Aba Daba Honeymoon," "Aba Baba Honeymoon."  She also likes this Ella Jenkins album we got after we started the kids music process.

We definitely sing with our kids -- my wife probably sings more to them than I do.  We've got lots of instruments -- it's a loud house, I don't know how our neighbors stand it.

Would you think about doing another family music album?

If people like this, then... when I play this for close friends like the other members of The Walkmen, or my parents, they realize that this is me.  It's what I really want to do.  I've already written another album, I just need to record it.

You know, there are other kids music artists who made music for adults for which this started maybe as a lark, but once they started it, they realized it was their true calling.  Dan Zanes, for example, passing out cassettes in a New York City park.  Or Chris Ballew, who several times, has talked about his work writing songs for preschoolers as Caspar Babypants as being his best songwriting work, what he wants to do even as he occasionally does Presidents of the United States of America stuff.  It's possible.

That's exactly how I feel.  There's a lot more creativity than I've had in the past.  People think there are more limits with this, but I feel like there are more limits with adult rock and roll.  You can ditch the "cool factor."

That's definitely one of the things that keeps it interesting.  There are so many more subjects available to sing and write about.

When I realized that, it was really exciting.  I can write a song about a tiger, and a love song, and both at once.  I'm really into it -- it's very creative.

Interview: Andrés Salguero

Andrés Salguero isn't the only musician making music for families in both English and Spanish, but his route to that calling might be more unusual than most.  The South American-born musician made his way to the United States playing clarinet, and while he couldn't have anticipated making music for families as a career, he had recorded a kids' album long before he even moved to America.

I chatted with Salguero about his childhood, his entry into making kids music Dino O'Dell in Kansas City, how kids' musicians can have a long-term impact, and the dual nature of his audiences.

Zooglobble: What are your first musical memories?

Andrés Salguero: Singing and dancing… seeing my dad play guitar around the house.  When I was six, I joined a folkloric group, a dancing and singing group.  I made lots of friends in that.  When I was 8, it was led by a famous writer, and she teamed up with a song writer and recorded an album.  It was fun, but as a child, everything was new.

You grew up in Colombia -- how did you make it to Kansas City?

I got my Bachelors' degree in Colombia, and looked at options for my Masters' degree.  Lots of those in the arts in Colombia look to Europe and America for those sorts of advanced degrees. So I sent in my tapes of clarinet performance to universities and got a full ride for a Masters in Fayetteville, Arkansas.  From there, I applied and got into the Conservatory of Music and Dance at the University of Missouri-Kansas City and over six years got my Doctorate.

You got your start playing kids music with Dino O'Dell -- how did that happen?

In Fayetteville, it's 12% Hispanic. I played with Pablo Salveza, he played salsa, merengue, bachata.  He was Chilean, the singer was from Cuba, some musicians were from Puerto Rico.  It was different, because in Colombia, there were not so many different styles and backgrounds.

I was playing with Pat Conway who came in from Kansas City.  He played with Dino and asked me to fill in for him [Pat] at a gig.  I remember meeting Dino for the first time while Pat was playing at a salsa gig at a beautiful outdoor venue.

At that point, I'd already written some children's music, but working with [Dino] really got me into the scene.  From him I understood the need for interaction and how to play with kids.

What made you want to play for kids full time?

I was always torn between playing my own music and that of others.  I was always interested in creative writing -- I won a music composition award in 2000.  Since then, I wanted to express myself, my own songs.

A few years ago, a relative of someone I was dating asked how I'd make a living do this.  And I said "play my own music."

Did you read that piece on being a kids' musician by the member of The Que Pastas?

I did.

I liked that.  You have to deal with the nicest people -- librarians, people who adore you, students.  Classical music is very competitive.  I play very specialized music -- contemporary avant-garde music.  I'd go to festivals and see the same people.  Fifty, two hundred people competing for the same spot.

This seemed like a viable way to make a career.  It was also very important to me to reflect my own culture, represent my country and help others have a pleasant experience with another culture.

I understand why some people have fear of another culture, fear of the unknown.  I wanted to introduce people to it in a friendly way.

Was that -- the desire to share culture -- something new?

Yes.  In Colombia, I played folk music, but I also had a rock band, playing the Clash and the Sex Pistols.  But moving here was a cultural shock, so I became interested in cultural identity.  In Kansas City, for example, I produced a play with a playwright on the topic.

Coming here, I realized I was different.  Colombia was homogenous, but here, people are different.

What were you trying to accomplish with the new CD?

I wanted to represent different aspects of Latino culture in the United States -- not just bringing folk music here, but music like mariachi.  Salsa -- a big part of that came out of New York City, one of the big record labels was founded by an Italian-American.  Bachata -- love songs -- came out of the Dominican Republic, but the biggest artists are born in New York, in Washington Heights, and Manhattan).

There's also a theme of multiculturalism, cross-cultural acceptance.  Some songs straight-forward, like "Hola, Amigo" -- "let's all be friends."  "My Friend Manuel" tells the a story from someone here experiencing a new culture, different way of viewing the world.  "Nuestra Fiesta," or "our party," says there's plenty of space, everyone's welcome.

What kind of audience do you typically get at your show?  Because sometimes the kindie concert scene can be… pretty Caucasian.

Very varied... you know, kids are honest, lots of kids with rich parents, lots with poor parents.  Sometimes at a show kids will come up to me and say, "My parents are from Colombia!"  Yesterday I was at a posh private school playing a show, and one child came up and said, "Hey, my au pair is from Colmbia!"  Some kids feel validated by seeing me up there.

The rest is to bring a cultural experience -- we practice Spanish, show off this fun culture.  There's a lot of interest in bilingual schools, a parent told me there's a waitlist of 800 families for one school.  The fact that there's a broad interest, that's good.  There's this Korean kid, he's come to 5 shows, knows some of the songs -- that's awesome!

There's still racism and prejudice -- I remember an ATM in Kansas City where somebody had scratched off the Spanish text.  So some people hate it, but hate comes from fear.  I can never change that person's mind, but hopefully I can do that for a kid.

Quick story: I'm trying to get some t-shirts and merchandise printed, and the person who I'm working with told me, "Hey, Barry Louis Polisar came to my elementary school, and seeing him changed my life."  You don't know what kind of impact you can have.

What's coming up next for you?

I'm going to Boston to play there for the first time next week.  I'm having a guest performance with Jazzy Ash, and meeting more friends in the kindie scene generally.  I'm going to play La Casa Azul in New York City for the Latin Alternative Music Conference, and they're going to have a family stage for the first time.  And I'm going to Tulsa for a week.

I'm also going to do a full Spanish version of my CD.  I couldn't do the album in just Spanish before.  Now I'm going to do this version not just as a translation, but as sort of the "negative" of the original, so "My Friend Manuel" becomes "Mi Amigo Paul," told from the point of view of the Spanish-speaking kid who moves in whose new neighbor Paul can only speak English.

Sugar Free Allstars, Record Store Day, and Vinyl's Allure

Chris "Boom" Wiser and Rob "Dr. Rock" Martin -- known as the Oklahoma-based duo Sugar Free Allstars -- are every bit as energetic in front of the mic, B3 organ, and drum kit as they are behind them.  In addition to touring, organizing the second annual Wiggle Out Loud kids music festival (set for Sept. 14, 2014), they're bringing kindie to the vinyl hipsters with a brand new 45 for what just might be a national holiday in some neighborhoods around the country -- Record Store Day.

They're releasing a brand new song, the little bit funky, little bit soulful "My Daddy's Record Collection," on a colorful 45, along with their classic track "Banana Pudding" as the B side.  The duo will premiere the 45 at OKC's Guestroom Records.

Wiser and Martin -- er, "Boom" and "Dr. Rock" answered a few questions about vinyl's allure and the new 45...

Zooglobble: Did your parents have a record collection?  What do you remember about it?

Boom: I remember my parents having some records, Ray Charles' Volcanic Action of my Soul and Jeannie C. Riley's Harper Valley P.T.A. are the first ones that come to mind. My sister and I had some records too because at the time that was still the main way you listened to music. We had a lot of book and record sets, where you would listen to the story on the record and follow along in the book. A bell would ding to tell you when to turn the page. We also had the Peter Paul and Mary children's album, one by Dora Hall, and a record from Disney with songs from several movies. We spent a LOT of time listening to all those records!

Dr. Rock: We mainly had 45's as all we could afford but quite a few of them and I still have most of them and they will still play. I grew up in a rock house so there was always music playing and my big brother and mom helped shape the music I like early in life. 

What was your own first album?  Was it vinyl, cassette, CD (or, dare I say it, 8-track)? What was your own first vinyl album?

Boom: My first vinyl record was a 45 of the theme song for the TV show The Dukes of Hazzard, a song called "Good Ol' Boys" by Waylon Jennings

Dr. Rock: I had and have all of the above media. I only recall my first 45 I bought with my own money and it was the Rolling Stones' Miss You. Had lots of cassettes in the 80's. Not a good medium to last but sound great. 

What inspired the song "My Daddy's Record Collection" and your desire for the RSD vinyl?

Boom: Dr. Rock got me back into listening to and collecting vinyl records again and my son Boom Jr and I listen to them together sometimes. He's 3 1/2 now, but when he was a little younger he liked to watch the label as the records would spin. He still likes to look at some of the album covers, like Talking Heads' Little Creatures. Now he has his own little record player and a copy of Abbey Road by The Beatles (it was a copy I got at a garage sale when I was in high school that was WELL broken in already back then). He likes to listen to that records sometimes, he'll turn on the player and put the needle on by himself.

As for releasing it on Record Store Day we thought it would be cool because there are a lot of musical acts that will release new vinyl or special editions on that day but no one in the Kindie/children's music world had that we were aware of.  [Ed. note: I think Dan Zanes was the first to release a kindie vinyl, but I'm pretty sure "Daddy's Record Collection" is the first new kindie RSD release.] And it helps to draw more attention to the release, hopefully encouraging more parents to expose their kids to the joys of music on vinyl records.

Dr. Rock: Boom and I love vinyl and wanted to put some out. 

What's coming up for SFA this summer?

Boom: We have a jam packed summer full of shows all over the Midwest region of the country, have some fun video projects in the works and will be working on putting together the second annual Wiggle Out Loud family music fest in OKC 

Dr. Rock: Lots of shows, lots of libraries! We play like mad in the summer, sometimes four times a day. But it's worth it to help everyone get their rock on in the summertime. 

Interview: Dan Zanes

When I think of Dan Zanes as a brand as much as kindie musician, that's meant as praise.  That brand, which I think of as standing for family musical togetherness and self-sufficiency, is the result of years of performing and recording music from a variety of cultures.  But he hasn't limited himself to those two art forms -- he's also turned his songs into videos, books, and apps, and now he's found himself heading up an early childhood musical education program.

The Dan Zanes House Party is the result of his collaboration with the Brooklyn Conservatory of Music, with Zanes not only lending his music and recordings, but also his time as class leader and accompanist for some of the classes.  We chatted by phone last week as Zanes popped some popcorn and talked about his new adventure.

Zooglobble: You've said before you didn't necessarily spend a lot of time singing growing up, but have memories of seeing Pete Seeger in concert.  What lessons did you draw from seeing him sing?

Dan Zanes: Two things.  First, singing is easy to do -- it's easy and it feels good.  Second, participation -- that was the key for me, the ridiculousness of people saying "I can't sing."

You build a communal spirit when we get together.  It has a lot to do with music, but with other things, too.  People singing together fairly quickly become a cohesive group.

Why this course now?

The Brooklyn Conservatory approached me.  I always aid I don't know anything about kids -- I do all ages music -- but I was open to it.  Classical music, what the Conservatory does, it seemed so formal to me.  But they want to evolve, become more of a cultural center.  To have people who'll support the vision, I went from skeptical to excited.

I met with Joy Marilie [who wrote the curriculum] -- I don't know a lot about early childhood education theories, but I didn't know how much of that is grounded in reality.  Sometimes it's good if somebody (like me) is new to it.  It's been a good experience.

How did you choose the songs -- what did you look for?

Joy had been around and had performed with me and helped me with this.  In finding songs, we looked at the ones I'd done.  But we're living in a multicultural society, so we should try to represent that society.  So I asked friends, did online research.

The songs are organized by theme -- sailing, for example, or animals, or things that go up and down.  Sometimes we'll put a song list together, and maybe we'd find too many English songs.  But it's also hard for the teachers who have to learn every song if there are too many foreign languages.  Sometimes I'll write songs [to fill in gaps].

You're participating in the classes, too, right?

Yes.  Every class has a teacher and an accompanist and I do both.  But even when I'm not leading a class, I've been going in every day, it's like a full-time job!

And what are you using for accompanying?

I'm using guitar, but I'm hoping to start working in banjo or ukulele.  Leading the class, though, I could barely sleep the night before my first time.

I'm still thinking about helping the adults.  I'm really grateful to be able to help families feel more musical.  If you take it home, it grows exponentially.  If it becomes alive in the house, that's something.  I want to give them tools and inspiration.

Taking a moment to ask a slightly tangential question, you've got a lot of different things going on at the moment -- what's like building a brand?

For me, I'm in high gratitude mode.  Almost nothing I do, could I do on my own -- I couldn't get out of the house.  It's kind of humbling, and I keep it front and center.

I can think of myself as another link in the chain that Pete Seeger started.  Those concepts changed my life, the way music can help kids change the world.

So I spend a lot of time trying not to screw it up, let people down, like audiences, or the Conservatory, or Stephanie, who runs the label.  I get my name up on the marquee, but it's a team effort.

Last question: what one Pete Seeger album do you recommend?

I'll give you two.  First, Live at the Sanders Theatre, where he's taking the song leader experience to a higher level, he had song leaders in different sections of the theatre.  And of course American Folk Songs for Children, which is where I learned "All Around the Kitchen."  Pete made one great album after another.  Sometimes the songs were a little weird -- he came at things from a different level, and had a high level of musical creativity.

Interview: Rainbow Beast and Rock Band Land

Describing Rock Band Land as a songwriting class for preschoolers and early elementary school students seems like such a poor description of the group pictured above.  You know, the ones standing in front of archery targets with definitely-not-apples on their heads and significant amounts of eye makeup, just like every preschool songwriting teacher, right?

But before I launch into this interview with the San Francisco-based group, I think it's important to understand at its core what they do so that you're better able to understand the flights of fancy they lead.  That's Brian Gorman, drummer and creator/co-director of Rock Band Land (RBL) on the left, and Marcus Stoesz, guitarist/keyboardist and RBL co-director on the right.  Together they head up RBL, which transforms into Rainbow Beast when bassist Jen Aldrich joins the two of them for recordings and live shows.

Now that you have your bearings, prepare to lose them, as the RBL and Rainbow Beast process is nothing like any songwriting class you've ever taken, either at age 5 or 35.

Zooglobble: What are your first musical memories?

Brian Gorman: I grew up in a loud, large family. My parents were never really into music, but it was the most important thing ever to my older brother and I. I remember being about 5 or 6 and we, and a group of our friends, had a Queen 45. I think it was "We Are The Champions," and we would listen to it relentlessly in my friend's backyard. We all agreed that we would each take turns sharing the record. We destroyed it within a week. 

Marcus Stoesz: I spent a lot of time hearing songs in church when I was really young, but the first music that actually captured my imagination were Casio keyboard demos and rhythms. I didn't realize until much later in life that these were based on actual songs and styles of music, I just thought that this little machine was a genius device. I started taking proper piano lessons at 7, and I can still play my first recital piece, "Ballade" by Friedrich Bürgmuller.

Jen Aldrich: One of my first strong musical memories is of listening to Cat Stevens' song "Moonshadow" many times over. It was the first song that really got under my skin and put down roots. There was something both creepy and comforting about it, and it was my first real awakening to the visceral power of music. 

When did you first start writing songs?

Brian: I was an avid music fan long before I realized that I too could actually create this magic. I didn't start writing songs till I was in my twenties. I was living in Japan and playing in a busking band of international misfits. We were writing really ambitious material - stuff that was way out of our ability to play - but we did a decent job of it and had an unbelievable amount of fun. 

Marcus: I was lucky enough to have a full upright piano in my living room, so I would spend a lot of time tinkering with it when I was really young. I started making up songs when I was 6 years old. I relished in creating variations on "Heart and Soul", because you could play just about anything over that progression. When I picked up the guitar in the 7th grade, I pretty much made up everything that I taught myself, just combining different chords that I found interesting. I think I wrote my first proper rock song in the 8th grade.

What was the inspiration for Rock Band Land?  Was it hard to convince parents to bring kids to a music-writing-focused workshop/class as opposed to one where the kids mostly just play music?

Brian: I started what later became Rock Band Land while working as a touring musician and preschool teacher. I was unimpressed with what I heard people encouraging kids to listen to and selfishly was going mad listening to sugary sweet music that I thought underestimated my students' intelligence and artistic sensibilities. At first it was an experiment: one afterschool extracurricular program just to see what would happen if I took some of the kids' ideas and help them shape them into a song. This was very much the rough and loose beginnings of what Marcus and I would later refine.

We have been very lucky. Rock Band Land has taken zero convincing. All of our advertisement has been done via word of mouth. The fun that we have in RBL is infectious; any kid who is in the audience of one of our The Big Shows (the culminating show for our Rock Out classes) wants to join one of our bands. 

Marcus: Brian answers the first question most fully, but the simple answer to your second question is "no".

Can you give a very broad overview of how you work with the kids to develop the songs?

Brian: In the second week of a Rock Out [class] we brainstorm and collect musical and narrative ideas for what will later become that band's song and story.

For the music, we discuss the difference between music and noise: noise are sounds randomly coming together without any specific thought or intention behind them and music is collection of sounds that have been intentionally assembled to rock your face off.

Though it's a bit of an oversimplification, we use the idea that all music is based in patterns, so when a rocker offers up a rhythmic or melodic idea to be considered for the song it has to be in a repeated pattern - this can be just one note played in a specific rhythm, the relation of a few notes creating a simple melody, or more involved chord progressions. We write down or record ever idea and generally before we even finish the rock out session Marcus, Rock Band Land's Maestro, is already stitching together the ideas of different rockers and the music for the song starts to come together.

The story for the song, and what will also be the basis song's lyrical content, is written with the entire band after we collect the musical ideas. The process is entirely led by the rockers' ideas and interests. We have 4 basic rules that guide us through the process:

- The story must be original

- Anything can happen in a Rock Band Land story, but its message must have some sense of redemption

- Potty words are hilarious, but not allowed in the stories because once we go down Poop Road there is no coming back (occasionally a diaper or some underwear will make it in the story, usually as some comic relief at the height of some tense spot in the story arc)

- If a rocker doesn't like an idea that someone else has suggested, it is their responsibility to change the idea into something that they think is better. This is possibly the most important rule for our stories as it makes each member of the band accountable to themselves to find something that they like in the story, to better it if they think it is lacking, and it sets up a dynamic of respect for each others' ideas even if we don't agree on a specific point.

Rock Band Land is largely an exercise in improvised creative collaboration. The first rule of improvising with others is to take whatever your partners are saying or doing and say, "Yes, and..." and then you build on whatever they just offered. This 4th rule of our story writing is basically our rockers always saying, "Yes, and..." and thereby supporting their bandmates' creativity and the process itself.

Marcus: Brian and I both lead different sections of the creation process, namely the musical idea collecting section, which I lead, and the story writing section, which Brian leads. Since we work with really young kids, most of them don't necessarily have the know-how to create cohesive parts but they do know what patterns are, and I've heard some really intricate patterns come out of the mouths or fingers of a 5 year old. We spend about 30 minutes jamming and listening to each other play different instruments, and by the end of that process I have a good idea of what the key or mode will be, the tempo, some of the melodies, etc.

After going through the story writing process, Brian and I take everything we have learned and been inspired by and then write the songs. We bring the songs back to the kids the next week, and they can hear some of the parts they contributed in the context of a fun and engaging song. 

What's the hardest part of the process for you? What's the most fun?

Brian: The hardest part is balancing the infinite amount of creativity and projects that pour like hot lava from the great Rock Band Land volcano with the limited amount of time that we have on this earth. Rock Band Land is rich with ideas and causes Rainbow Beast to be an exceedingly prolific band. We are very lucky for that and it's paramount to us that the quality of everything that we do and make for our rockers and with our rockers stays extremely high. Sometimes the press of time can threaten those high standards, but fortunately we've always found a way to pull it off. 

I honestly love every bit of our process, but there is nothing like that moment when the band's story all of the sudden coalesces from a series of seemingly random ideas into a piece of collective art. It feels very much like watching something come to life. It's magic. 

Marcus: The hardest part for me is wrapping my head around the sheer volume of songwriting put forth in the 2nd week of class. Often times I worry that a song isn't cohesive enough, or too long, or too wordy, and there's always a part of me that can't accept and wants to fix these perceived problems. This is pretty much impossible, because once the songs have been written, that ship has sailed. It's time to record scratch tracks and create Word documents, not rewrite the songs.

The upside to this is the feeling of relief I always get in the 4th week, when I start recording the rockers' voices and begin my guitar and Jen's bass overdubs, when the pieces of the puzzle all start falling into place. The recording session with the kids is my favorite point in the class. Leading them through the song, a song that they all know and love, always feels triumphant. I also love the quiet recording session I have at home, recording keyboard or guitar overdubs, when I can let my creativity run free.

Has writing songs with kids affected your music-making and writing for adults?

Brian: Without a doubt, creating with kids under the simple rules that we have in Rock Band Land, has made me a better collaborator and artist in general. I have long played in a math-y, progressive band called Tartufi. For years we pushed ourselves as hard as we could to write and arrange wildly complex, layered music. What I have learned from RBL and Rainbow Beast is the great value in letting simple ideas shine through.

My writing is has been freed by our process in Rock Band Land. I rarely feel inhibited or experience any sort of writer's block. In the past I may have been attached to my words and afraid to edit. Now everything is fair game and if something doesn't work out I just move on and create something else.   

Marcus: I definitely think so, though it's hard to put into words. I think it reinforces my belief that often the most simple of musical choices are also often the best. The kids' spontaneity when rocking out is inspiring and refreshing. Also, because of the prolific nature of the Rock Band Land process, it's really honed my songwriting chops. 

An oft-repeated maxim in kids music is "don't talk down to kids."  What does that phrase mean to you?

Brian: It means to always remember that kids, no matter how cute you think they might be, are complex people too and their ideas matter and they deserve respect as individuals.

Marcus: I haven't heard much kids' music, but my first, kinda self-righteous response is, "Well then, start writing songs like that." I can't listen to much kids' music because it feels condescending, at least to me. 

Jen: To me, it means meeting kids at their level with honesty and respect. Answering their questions with as much real information as you can for their age, giving them room to express themselves without jumping in to finish their ideas or correct them, and engaging with their thoughts and ideas with the same curiosity and patience you would show to any other person you are just getting to know.

What's next for the band and the Rock Band Land program?

Brian: This week we are producing one of our The Big Shows. In the near future we have new sessions of Rock Out, summer camps, and our album release shows that we are in the production phases of right now. These shows will be massive, mutli-media spectacle of rock music, storytelling, comedy, and video - imagine a punk rock, DIY version of A Prairie Home Companion and that will give you some sense of what we are going for.

We are going to continue producing our Broadcast Podcast and all of the songs and stories from our regular session. In the spring we will continue our World Tour of San Francisco Schools where we bring the Rainbow Beast show to public schools. 

We are steadily working towards developing some sort of television / webcast show with our production partners The Werehaus. We have a few sketch comedy bits that we are currently producing as well as a new music video. 

In the next year I'd like for us to start exploring producing a book or a series of books based on the RBL stories, I'd like Rainbow Beast to develop into a touring act, I want to partner with animators to make some new shorts based on our stories. I'd like for us to create bite-size music lessons that we can share with kids online. I'd like for us to develop an interactive web magazine for kids. I'd like for every kid everywhere to be able to experience Rock Band Land and Rainbow Beast.

Marcus: We're going to keep writing hundreds of songs. We're going to uncover some great mysteries in the forest and in the glaciers of Columbia. We're going to spread out the Rock Band Land territory to link the worlds of the Muzziluhmonks and the Doldies. I'm going to keep singing as high as a 6-year-old. Brian will continue to throw up diamonds. Jen will continue to triumph over all the meanness in the world by overwhelming it with niceness. It will be awesome. 

Photo credits: Kristen Sard

Interview: Dan Zanes and Elizabeth Mitchell

If you're reading this site, Dan Zanes and Elizabeth Mitchell should need no introduction, but in the off-chance that you or your partner or your (adult) child just gave birth, the two artists are kids music superstars.  From the beginning of their careers making music for families in the late '90s -- they may be the best examplars of what Zanes has termed "age-desegregated music" -- Zanes and Mitchell have held the kindie banner high.

And so while it's taken them fifteen years to get together on record, the result, Turn Turn Turn , is worth the wait.  I spoke with them by phone last week about the album, its creation, playing the songs live, and music-making -- not just theirs, but everyone's.

***** 

Zooglobble: I usually ask folks what their earliest musical memories, but since you are both so well known for encouraging folks to join in and make music, what are your favorite music-making/concert memories?

Elizabeth Mitchell (EM):  You know, this weekend was amazing, we had such a good time.  On Saturday, we did a show in New York City, which was wonderful.  For the first time, we played in front of a row of stuffed animals.

And then on Sunday, we played at the Ashokan Center for a Summer Hoot.  Lots of friends, Natalie Merchant joined us, Simi Stone, a local violinist.  It was all unforced, unthought.  Pete Seeger was on the side of the stage, smiling

Dan Zanes (DZ):  Yeah, that was a good one.

Two thoughts popped into my mind, the first being I was just starting out making music for families.  I was playing at a synogogue on Cobble Hill here in Brooklyn, everyone sitting down.  The drummer went into "Rock Island Line," and people jumped up to dance.  It was the day I realized people wanted  to dance.  It was a revelation to me.  There was an entirely different component than sitting down at a Pete Seeger concert.

The other memory was playing at the Clearwater Festival, we were playing "Hop Up Ladies."  I hadn't realized that Pete Seeger was watching from the side of the stage.  We finished, then he got up and said, "here's another version of the song."

EM: He was saying, "You weren't jumping the whole octave." [Laughs] 

DZ: The conversation we had with Pete meant a lot to us. 

So what prompted you to make this album? 

DZ: We've been talking about it for years.  Elizabeth had been busier than me.  It might have been [Festival Five manager] Stephanie [Mayers] who wanted this for years.

EM: It was a question of time, finding it.  There are so many balls in the air.  We played some shows together, and after that we knew how to make it.  We thought it might take more than three days, but thought it could work.  My first album, You Are My Flower , was recorded in a day, but the later albums took longer.  Finishing it in three days was almost like a dare.

DZ: Yeah, [my first album] Rocket Ship Beach took just a few days.

How did you pick the songs? 

EM: We got together at Dan's house.  Three or four songs we were both thinking of.   We both had "When We Get Home" on our list, and it was, like, "Really?" -- it's sort of obscure.  We hadn't talked about songs, and I felt a bit hesitant, but after that... Dan talks about "drawing from the same well," I say "pulling from the same root."

DZ: We ordered Pakistani food, and by the time we got to dessert, we knew it would work. 

EM: Another even was that during this process, a friend went to a Clearwater Sloop meeting and Pete Seeger sang "Turn Turn Turn" with new lyrics [Seeger's wife] Toshi wrote in 1954.  My friend recorded the performance, transcribed the words, and brought it to Dan.  We brought the lyrics to Pete's daughter and asked to use them.  It brought really deep inspiration to both of us -- it anchored the record, it was the thread.

Was that an aesthetic decision, to record in three days? 

DZ: It makes it sound rushed, but it wasn't.  I can fiddle around a lot.  But the musicians are all so good at what they do. 

EM: We rehearsed ahead of time, and thought about it.  We didn't want to be overly precious.  A lot of music we're inspired by was made in a present way, very real. 

DZ: There were a lot of breaks for snacks; Elizabeth even took a field trip, or maybe she was sleeping. [Laughs] 

EM: That field trip was to Ashokan, I was not  sleeping.

DZ: I like the idea that music-making is part of real life. 

Do you think more people are making music-making part of their life?  

EM: I hope so... I think so.  People certainly say yes.

I love hearing about people changing the music I make, like how they change "Little Bird" or "Little Liza Jane" or Freight Train," including where they  live, where they  go.  In that sense, that's positive feedback.

DZ: I think so, too.  When my daughter Anna was born, I obsessed about finding the music that would be the first she heard, and somebody asked why it couldn't be me .  And it never even occurred to me that I  could've been the first music she heard.  That idea is really in the air now.

You know, I live in Brooklyn, where people are butchering their own meat and having nineteenth-century cabdriver handlebar mustaches, carrying banjos.  There's a pushback against consumerism. 

So what have you enjoyed playing live from the new album?  

EM: We just did "Coney Island Avenue" for the first time.  I was intimidated before, but I got some newfound drum courage, and it was fun. 

DZ: Liz's "Honeybee" -- I played that with a friend who came over and it was a totally satisfying experience. 

EM: "Turn Turn Turn" is a powerful and lovely song -- we can invoke Pete Seeger to get people to join us in song. 

DZ: You know, another personal memory -- my family didn't sing, but every few years when I was a kid we'd go see Pete Seeger in concert.  That  was a communal experience.  Who knows, maybe some of these families at our concerts are like mine, and will remember that experience [like I did Pete].

 It's pretty obvious that the Seeger family has had a big impact on both of your careers. 

EM: Definitely.  Pete Seeger, Ruth Crawford Seeger, Mike Seeger, Peggy Seeger -- in a performative sense, they're almost initimidating.  Mike especially -- I'd never pick up the guitar if I felt I had to match his skill.

Seeing Pete in concert is tremendously inspiring.  He did a performance we went to for a CELLAbration concert honoring Ella Jenkins.  He didn't get near the microphone, he was just getting the audience to sing along.  Inspiring.

DZ: He's outlined how to do it in a book.  One word he keeps coming back to is participation.  If that's all you had as a kids' entertainer, it's perfect. 

EM: I'm not inspired by music designed to be consumed by kids.  They should be part of it. 

DZ: Elizabeth's better at that than me. 

EM: No! 

I think you both do a great job of getting audience participation, but in different ways. 

EM: Dan's rock-n-roll, I'm more of a nice teacher. 

DZ: We're learning from each other. 

EM: Totally. 

What's next for each of you?  

EM: I've got a Christmas record [The Sounding Joy ] coming out, and hopefully my album with Suni Paz will be coming out next year.  

And, of course, lots of shows with Dan this fall.  I'll say as I'm leaving a concert with Dan, "When will I see you again?" and he'll say, "Tomorrow!" 

DZ: That Christmas album is great, by the way.  I'm developing a music program for kids ages eighteen months through eight years.  The Brooklyn Conservatory of Music will participate and hopefully go national.  And I've been thinking about young people a lot and will be recording an album specifically for kids. 

Photo credits: Zanes and Elizabeth, Greta Nicholas; front steps, Anna Zanes; field, Stephanie Mayers.